Thank you so much for your comments on the hypothetical raised in yesterday's post.
The issues raised came before I had reached 100 pages in The Butterfly Mosque, and I continue to ponder them.
It wasn't a decision I found easy to make. I don't believe that anyone behaved 'well' but, on the basis of personal responsibility, would put the woman at the top of my 'blame list'. ( I should also add that in anything other than a hypothetical I would keep this list firmly to myself.) She made her decision and acted accordingly, but left her safety as the responsibility of other people. I believe that the killer who was presented as definitively insane is not responsible. Guilty but not responsible.
So how did the group respond?
The westerners said that the madman was number one because he had committed the murder. The others in the scenario were given varied rankings. The missing husband? Least responsible.
The Egyptians were apparently horrifed. The woman came in at number one, and her husband at number two. The ferryman (because he was uncharitable) ranked higher in their list too. The madman couldn't distinguish between right and wrong. They treated him as a force of nature, and ranked him last.
So why the differences? The explanation presented in the memoir is that the Egyptians were considering moral responsibility and the westerners personal rights. Under the Egyptian moral code the husband for example had an obligation to care for his wife's physical and emotional happiness. By neglecting her he failed to meet his obligation and indirectly contributed to her death.
The westerners seemed to accept (while not always condoning the decisions made) that both the husband and wife had the right to make their own decisions. If the husband decided that his career took priority over his marriage that was his perogative. If the wife looked for sexual/emotional fulfilment elsewhere that was hers. Spousal responsibility was not considered.
I can see both arguments (but would still lean towards acceptance of personal responsibility).
I was fascinated at the compromise position the group arrived at.
1: The madman because he wielded the knife.
2: The wife, for knowingly endangering her life
3: The husband, for encouraging her to do so through his neglect.
4: The lover (apparently for general bastardry)
5: The ferryman because lack of charity is a sin in Islam
6: The friend.
Do I agree with the compromise? Probably not. However I am super-impressed that both sides were able to work together to reach something which wasn't perfect for either of them.
And I continue to learn from the book. A win.
The issues raised came before I had reached 100 pages in The Butterfly Mosque, and I continue to ponder them.
It wasn't a decision I found easy to make. I don't believe that anyone behaved 'well' but, on the basis of personal responsibility, would put the woman at the top of my 'blame list'. ( I should also add that in anything other than a hypothetical I would keep this list firmly to myself.) She made her decision and acted accordingly, but left her safety as the responsibility of other people. I believe that the killer who was presented as definitively insane is not responsible. Guilty but not responsible.
So how did the group respond?
The westerners said that the madman was number one because he had committed the murder. The others in the scenario were given varied rankings. The missing husband? Least responsible.
The Egyptians were apparently horrifed. The woman came in at number one, and her husband at number two. The ferryman (because he was uncharitable) ranked higher in their list too. The madman couldn't distinguish between right and wrong. They treated him as a force of nature, and ranked him last.
So why the differences? The explanation presented in the memoir is that the Egyptians were considering moral responsibility and the westerners personal rights. Under the Egyptian moral code the husband for example had an obligation to care for his wife's physical and emotional happiness. By neglecting her he failed to meet his obligation and indirectly contributed to her death.
The westerners seemed to accept (while not always condoning the decisions made) that both the husband and wife had the right to make their own decisions. If the husband decided that his career took priority over his marriage that was his perogative. If the wife looked for sexual/emotional fulfilment elsewhere that was hers. Spousal responsibility was not considered.
I can see both arguments (but would still lean towards acceptance of personal responsibility).
I was fascinated at the compromise position the group arrived at.
1: The madman because he wielded the knife.
2: The wife, for knowingly endangering her life
3: The husband, for encouraging her to do so through his neglect.
4: The lover (apparently for general bastardry)
5: The ferryman because lack of charity is a sin in Islam
6: The friend.
Do I agree with the compromise? Probably not. However I am super-impressed that both sides were able to work together to reach something which wasn't perfect for either of them.
And I continue to learn from the book. A win.
Right. That is very interesting. I can see how being raised in the West has colored my reading of the hypothetical scenario.
ReplyDeleteBea: I was amazed (and probably shouldn't have been) our much influence our backgrounds have on our judgements. Group think.
DeleteAn interesting exercise, for sure.
ReplyDeleteBill: Thank you. I found it so.
DeleteI suppose before we judged, we should have put some emphasis on the madman being mad, or mentally unwell. All very thought provoking.
ReplyDeleteAndrew: It certainly provoked me into rather a lot of thought.
Deleteinteresting post love from cold Poland
ReplyDeleteGosia k: Thank you.
DeleteWhen I made my choices, I saw them through the eyes of my culture and the eyes of a once-neglected wife. I knew that there would be cultural differences. I've enjoyed this learning exercise.
ReplyDeleteLove,
Janie
Janie Junebug: I am glad. This is a very different post to the ones I usually make. It must have been so very hard for the author of this memoir struggling with two cultures. And for her family, and for her husband and his family.
DeleteWhat an interesting couple of posts and you've certainly got me thinking, which is always good!
ReplyDeleteLL Cool Joe: Thank you. I am relieved to hear I wasn't the only one who had to think about this.
DeleteI still say the madman first, but the husband definitely should have protected his wife and maybe done something so she wouldn't stray. Then again, she did, which was horribly wrong in the first place.
ReplyDeleteAlex J. Cavanaugh: It is fascinating how much our background/upbringing affects our answers isn't it?
DeleteWhat most of us see as a "clash" of cultures is worth deeper consideration, isn't it? I would much prefer to see more blending.It pains me greatly that the majority have elected our governors from a base of "blame." Of course I don't want everyone to be in the same group! But I really, really do want to see those group edges softened. A lot.
ReplyDeletedinahmow: Yes. A big yes to seeing softer edges. And a lot less black and white thinking.
Deletevery interesting.
ReplyDeleteChristine: I found the premise raised fascinating. And am still thinking about it.
DeleteWhat a fascinating exercise. As usual, I was able to argue for both sides, Egyptian and western!
ReplyDeleteMarty Damon: Me too. And my personal response is somewhere between the two.
DeleteFascinating study reading all the answers people left you. Our decisions, right or wrong, can lead us all into trouble.
ReplyDeleteDenise inVA: Our decisions can and do take us into trouble - and sometimes out of it as well.
DeleteThis was very interesting.
ReplyDeleteI went back to your previous post to catch up on the many comments that had been listed after mine.
It certainly made us all think, and as you said "I continue to learn from the book. A win."
Enjoy the rest of your week, and have a good weekend too.
All the best Jan
Lowcarb team member ~Jan: Thank you. I learn every day (from a variety of sources) and hope to continue. Enjoy your week.
DeleteFascinating - and sounds like a book I'd like to read. Thanks for making me think, and think again.
ReplyDeletejenny_o: I don't think that the author of the memoir and I would see eye to eye on a whole range of issues, but I am very grateful to be able to read and learn from her perspective. And thinking is a generous gift (like your comments).
DeleteInteresting, thank you for posting this follow up.
ReplyDeletemessymimi: My pleasure. I am glad you found it interesting.
DeleteHi EC - we tend to go with our cultures ... because we've never thought differently. It was certainly interesting to take the exercise and now to read your answers ... got me thinking too - but sadly not too deeply ... other things within the rattling brain ... cheers Hilary
ReplyDeleteHilary Melton-Butcher: I hope your rattling brain is filled with pleasant things.
DeleteInteresting. I wish I had all the time in the world. I would add the Butterfly Mosque to my TBR list. It certainly is worth the time.
ReplyDeleteAnn Bennett: So many books, so little time. I will never reach the end of my TBR list. I will keep trying though.
DeleteI bought the book. Hope to start reading it soon!!
ReplyDeletefishducky: I hope you like it. I am not all that fond of Willow herself, but find her experiences fascinating.
DeleteI was raised to be responsible for my own actions and raised my kids the same, so personal responsibility is important for me. I rarely do something that I couldn't take the blame for if it all went haywire on me. I've always admitted being in the wrong if that's how things turned out.
ReplyDeleteRiver: Snap. Taking and accepting personal responsibility is the way I was brought up as well.
DeleteI took the term "madman" not to mean insane as in not responsible, but just .. well ... murderous, dangerous, not following the norms. If I had understood this(being a non-native speaker doesn't help either), he also would not have made it to my guilty-list.
ReplyDeleteI totally stand for freedom of choice, but you are responsible for your choices. Going to a place where an insane murderer is known to roam without money for your return, or a plan B, is equal to going to sea on a cold and stormy night without a life-jacket. I go with the easterners acquitting him of guilt.
But I still want to put some of the blame on a society or family (dependent of place and time) not constraining or otherwise stopping him.
Uglemor: Thank you. I am sorry, perhaps I needed to make it clearer that the madman was insane. And yes, in an ideal world the madman would have been confined. I agree with you about the foolishness of going to an unsafe location without taking precautions to ensure your own safety.
DeleteAnd lack of charity is a sin in the Christian world as well. Both the friend and the ferryman are morally guilty in her death.
ReplyDeleteUglemor: The Egyptians were more generous to the friend because his/her motives for refusing assistance were not known. I don't think that anyone in this hypothetical behaved well, and would hope that all the survivors would search their consciences. And make some changes too.
DeleteI left a comment on this but It didn’t show up. Blogger did the same thing in another blog I follow.
ReplyDeleteRick Watson: Blogger seems to be rife with glitches at the moment. I am sorry it prevented you commenting.
DeleteI missed the conundrum so have just done quite a bit of catching up and reading of comments. Fascinating, absolutely fascinating, cultural differences.
ReplyDeleteKim: I have been fascinated too.
DeleteSome friend YOU are. Now, I absolutely positively MUST read this book! (Thanks! :) )
ReplyDeleteNatch, I had to read your last post to understand the issue, and the results are fascinating. Another thing to consider: a madman may not be responsible for his actions, but is someone ELSE potentially responsible for his madness, and thus, his behavior itself? A cruel mother, an abusive father, a pedophile priest, etc. etc. etc. We're all so interconnected, we never know for sure how the ripples caused by our actions may affect other people.
That being said, whether our actions result in positives or negatives, I'm a strong proponent of personal responsibility. If I willfully take step A, I must accept responsibility for what ensues.
Fascinating post, dear lady. Have a wonderful weekend.
Susan: It seems only fair that I tempt others to read books. I often succumb.
DeleteWithout doubt someone (or several someones) are responsible for the madman/s state and his freedom. That is a whole new scenario though.
Well, I also put the wife first. And thanks for this interesting study of the differences in cultures. I guess I'll have to read the book myself, too. :-)
ReplyDeleteDJan: I found Willow irritating on lots of levels but was glad of a perspective we don't often see.
DeleteI wonder what made the madman mad?
ReplyDeleteI think maybe therein lies the answer. Something or someone usually is the cause of a person's madness?
Or perhaps I am totally wrong...*smiles*
I am intrigued...will HAVE to read this book now!!
Have a Great Weekend! :))
Big Hugs xoxoxo
Ygraine: Mental illness is a global problem. I don't think there is any one size fits all solution, but am very glad it is at least being more openly talked about.
DeleteIt was such an interesting question that I have been thinking about it since I first read it on your blog. Thanks for sharing the results and the differences between the two ways of thinking. I find it interesting the difference in thinking about the ferryman and his level of guilt. All around- a lot of fun to think about. :)
ReplyDeleteGlad you are really enjoying the book!
~Jess
DMS: It is an interesting question isn't it? And how I wish that we all steered clear of black and white answers about most questions.
Delete"Under the Egyptian moral code the husband for example had an obligation to care for his wife's physical and emotional happiness."
ReplyDeleteI guess his obligation doesn't extend to granting her full rights as a human being, doesn't preclude mutilating their young daughter's genitals, and doesn't preclude murdering their adolescent daughter in an honor killing if their daughter is disobedient. Aside from such trivia, he's responsible for making his wife happy. Right.
Snowbrush: I think you are tarring a whole religion with the actions/beliefs of extremists. And I wonder what the extremist take on our culture and mine would be. I believe for example that genital mutilation is condemned as 'unIslamic' by some. Fundamentalists (referred to as fundies) in this book were feared, and avoided. And it is certainly true that more Muslims are killed by them than any other group.
DeleteCan you name a single Islamic-run country in which the rights of women, homosexuals, or atheists are respected? While I would agree that genital mutilation, suicide bombings, and "honor killings" aren't found in every such country, the denial of basic human rights is.
DeleteSnowbrush: I don't know enough to answer you. I do know that we are presented with the ugly side. I suspect there is more to it than that. Our own culture hasn't been good to women or homosexuals either. And I believe that atheists face difficulty in your country.
DeleteInteresting and worthwhile post, dear. THANKS!
ReplyDeleteinteresting, related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SOQduoLgRw&feature=youtu.be
Cloudia: I will check out that link shortly. Thank you.
DeleteThat's a really interesting look at how different people look at the same situation and come to different conclusions.
ReplyDeleteMary Kirkland: I found it fascinating.
Deletehmmmm
ReplyDeleteAuthor R. Mac Wheeler: I feel sure you have more to say than that.
DeleteThis sounds like a very interesting book and I put it on my wish list. I do have to say that I had to think for quite a while about my "rank list" and of course it turned out more "Western", suspecting that the Egyptian side would look different.
ReplyDeleteFood for thought...
Carola Bartz: My list came somewhere between the Western and the Egyptian - which surprised me a little. It was an interesting book, despite the fact that I am pretty certain that the author and I are very far from kindred spirits.
DeleteThis is very, very interesting! Thanks for sharing all of this EC!!! Big Hugs!
ReplyDeleteMagic Love Crow: I am glad that others were also interested. Big hugs to you too.
DeleteInteresting answers - all of them. I was also fascinated to find I think like a westerner. I am a mix of both eastern and western cultures as my Mum is German and my Dad Indian. Much to think about here .
ReplyDeleteKalpanaa M: I was a bit surprised that I fell somewhere between the two. My mother was English, my father German and I was born in Australia so I would have expected the western side to dominate.
Deletethey are all guilty but the madman the most
ReplyDeleteLinda Starr: I would exempt the madman from responsibility because he had no choice. I agree that none of the others behaved well.
Delete