Wet and Aggressive Corella challenges Magpie

Wet and Aggressive Corella challenges Magpie

Thursday 27 September 2018

A Conundrum

The memoir I am reading posed a problem which apparently illustrates the huge cultural divide between Muslim Egyptians (and presumably all muslims) and people from the United States (and similarly, presumably most 'westerners').

The book is The Butterfly Mosque by G. Willow Wilson.  She is an American writer and journalist who converted to Islam and married an Egyptian man in the very volatile post 9/11 world.  I am not very far into the book, but finding it fascinating despite some of the writer's philosophies/viewpoints being completely alien to mine.

A team-building exercise was given to the staff at the Language School at which she worked. Participants were given a short case study. 

In summary:
A woman whose husband is always away on business and who neglects her goes out at night to meet a lover.  There is a known homicidal madman on the loose.  At the end of the evening the woman asks her lover to escort her home in case the madman appears.  He refuses.  The woman goes to a nearby friend's house and asks her friend to walk home with her.  The friend refuses.  The woman goes on alone.  At the river separating her neighbourhood from her lover's she asks the ferryman to take her across.  She has insufficient money to pay the fare and he refuses.  The woman, trapped on the wrong side of the river is killed by the madman.

The question asked of the participants is 'Who is responsible for her death?  Rank the characters by the order of their guilt with the most guilty being ranked 1'.  Stop at the point where you think there is no guilt.

The answers given by the westerners were very, very different to those given by the Egyptians.  I didn't agree with either list completely but came much closer to the Egyptian viewpoint. 

I would be very interested to hear your ideas.  I would really appreciate it if you would list your 'order of guilt' in the comments, perhaps with some explanation.

I will be out most of today, but will post the answer the class gave and the reasons, and my own later.

 

54 comments:

  1. Definitely adding this book to my list.
    No time right now to answer this, but will come back later...

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  2. Hi EC - that's a difficult one ... and I too would need time to consider ... though I think I'd say the woman, the lover, the friend ... the ferryman - should have no guilt ... but probably will. Interesting book to be reading - I look forward to your answers - cheers Hilary

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  3. My answer would be, "Everyone."

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  4. The madman, the woman, the lover, the friend, the ferryman. The person who kills her is most resonsible. She is responsible for her own actions, and comes in second. The Lover presumably cares about her, but fails her-- likewise the friend. The Ferryman's guilt is medium to non-existent depending on outside influences, but I would assess below the others.

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  5. Super tough. Obviously, the lover is a cad for not wanting to walk her home. The friend could have offered her shelter, at least. The ferryman is thinking with his pocketbook. End of. I wish, of course, that the woman had just stayed home.

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  6. The only person responsible for her death is the one who killed her.

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  7. 1. The homicidal madman. Of course, he is a madman, so maybe he does not know what he is doing. I am going to say he is sane though, and, therefore, guilty. With a good lawyer though .....

    2. The woman. I was her decision to go out knowing that a killer was on the loose. She also would have put her lover's life in danger if he had accompanied her home (for many reasons). We all have to be responsible for the choices we make.

    3. The lover, if he was the one who asked her to meet him. If the meet up was her idea, then he is off the hook. However, he is no gentleman, but we knew that already since he was secretly meeting with a married woman.

    4. The friend. She probably did not want to get involved in her friend's marital problems. A good friend, though, knowing the dangers about, could have called an Uber/cab to get her home safely.

    5. The ferryman. He could have been kinder, but business is business.

    The husband, although he was not attentive to his wife, bares no blame. It was his wife's choice to have a lover, and his wife's choice to go out when a dangerous predator was in the area.

    I can't believe that I am letting the husband off scott- free. I must be mellowing in my old age.

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  8. I didn't read anyone elses response yet, but here are mine. 1. The madman. He is the one who chose to kill. 2. The woman. She chose to go out knowing she was putting herself in danger. 2. The lover. He asked the woman to go out and refused to take responsibility to keep her safe. 4. The friend. Knew the woman was in danger and didn't help. 5. The husband. He ignored the needs of his wife. and 6. The ferryman is the least guilty. He was doing his job and had no compulsory obligation to keep the woman safe.

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    1. I agree with this order of guilt (& I'm getting the book)!!

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  9. Interesting … and tricky!
    Perhaps the woman should have just stayed at home!

    Be back later to see other thoughts and replies.

    All the best Jan

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  10. After reading your post I requested the ebook from the library. I already have it on my tablet. I will read it after "Lost history: the enduring legacy of Muslim scientists, thinkers, and artists", which I started yesterday. Quite interesting as well.

    From the Western point of view, the madman is the first to be blamed for her death. I think an Egyptian will say she is responsible.

    As for the others... as a Westerner I would say lover, friend, ferryman but I have a feeling this is not the correct answer. Maybe the friend is second... a friend in need is a friend indeed, after all. And this one failed. The lover just wanted to have a good time... hmmm how about the absent husband? Not sure... He is responsible for not performing her husbandly duties... oh dear... I am in a bind here.

    : )

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  11. The madman is the one person responsible for her death. The rest are examples of poor human behaviour, but also very normal human behaviour.

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  12. The madman is responsible for her death.
    The others could've helped prevent it by assisting the woman.

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  13. Very interesting to consider. First of all, I immediately didn't like the woman because she is cheating on her husband. Karma delivers sometimes when we don't want it to. :-)

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    1. why does the woman deserve for karma to bite her with DEATH?
      why is cheating so much more heinous and blame worthy than abandonment?

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  14. Well- my first thought is that the guiltiest person is the madman who murdered her- because he did it. After that- I am not sure who I think is guilty. It seems odd the woman would go out without enough money to get home- but I don't see why the ferry driver would give her a ride without the fare. Her friend could have offered for her to stay over. Her lover obviously wouldn't want to escort her home, and it seems very risky to meet him when there is a madman (possibly the lover) on the loose and she is cheating on her husband. Have to think more- but these are my initial thoughts.
    ~Jess

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  15. It's quite a dilemma. DMS is right that the murderer himself is most to blame. After that, she should have stayed home no matter how her husband treated her (if she wanted to leave him, fine, but running around behind his back is wrong). Her husband is responsible for his neglect, but he did not force her into the arms of another.

    Every male who knew a madman was on the loose and still refused to escort her was partially responsible, too. As for numbering, i am not sure.

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  16. Eerie in we all have the same answer, madman - woman - lover - friend - ferryman.

    Although I have the niggling idea that the ferryman knew she would be stranded and should have taken her across with whatever money she had as payment. There is a point you have to rise to the occasion which the ferryman could have done. I don't think the lover was a lover or the friend a friend.

    Oh well, I will be checking back.

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  17. Im thinking if the husband would have showed her more compassion and less neglect, none of this would have happend. So Im making the husband the most guilty as his actions are what forced her to a lover. I put the lover as second. He should have been more of a gentleman. The woman has no guilt, shes dead.
    Lisa

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    1. Did the husband's actions 'force' her to a lover? Or was she the type who might have cheated on him anyway?

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  18. I don't know if I'm over-analyzing the word "guilt" but assuming that "guilt" means "responsibility," I do believe in collective responsibility, so I feel everyone had a hand in the tragedy, in this order:

    1. the homicidal madman, unless "madman" is defined as mentally ill to the extent he didn't know right from wrong, in which case he could not be held responsible, and I would put him further down the list, probably all the way to the bottom
    2. the woman herself, if she knew about the danger and went out anyway (if she didn't know until she was already out, I would hold her less responsible but still in second place). If she was unhappy, the better approach would have been to try to improve the relationship rather than jump ship. Circumstances may not have allowed this, however, for example, if there was abuse or coercion by her husband to keep her in the relationship. If there was abuse or coercion, then her husband should be in second place. Which might be first place, if the killer was insane.
    3. the lover - he was fine with having an affair but wouldn't put himself out to try and protect her
    4. the husband, whose behavior contributed to her unhappiness and subsequent straying (assuming no abuse or coercion)
    5. the friend - I would not expect her to risk her own life on the way back to her home alone, and she should not have had to do anything to cover up the affair, but she could have helped in some way such as offering a place to stay for the night
    6. the ferry man - special circumstances (i.e., killer on the loose) call for common sense, and refusing to let the woman ride - given the possible danger - was not the responsible thing to do

    Sorry for the length of my answer. I am waiting, intrigued, for the class answer and your own!

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  19. Is the mad man actually mad? If he is responsible for his actions the responsibility is his alone.

    If he is not responsible for his actions, it is ultimately an accident of place and time. It is tempting to blame the woman but she is not responsible for the actions of a murderer and any other response regarding her is victim blaming.

    All of the other parties could have made more generous choices but they are not responsible, either.

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    1. If the madman is actually mad, is the blame at the feet of mental health services or their lack? is there blood on the hands of the government? health minister? local hospital?

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  20. 1. the husband 2. the lover 3. the friend 4. the ferryman 5. the "madman"? or is he insane and not responsible for his actions?

    I don't blame the victim. She was trying to deal with her husband's neglect. The lover, the friend, and the ferryman are all heartless, but the husband is the worst. I was a neglected wife so I know. Neglect destroys relationships. It's similar to not watering a plant. The plant withers and dies. The husband killed her.

    Love,
    Janie

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    1. I love this answer because it is one of the rare times I have seen a husband's neglect given the weight it deserves

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    2. Thank you. Been there, done that, will never allow myself to be treated that way again.

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  21. The question:Who is responsible for her death?
    This seems to me to be about who is to blame when something goes badly wrong.

    In my view there is very little appetite for self-responsibility in contemporary society. It was the woman's decision to go about on a night when a madman was loose. My decision, based on self responsibility, places the fault with the woman who made the wrong decision. Her decision and hers alone. No one held a gun to her head and forced her to go.
    This story demonstrates how reliance on others can sometimes bring about disappointment (in this case death) and what a sorry bunch she had to rely on. A lover who wouldn't help her and a so-called friend. Not to mention the neglecting husband. What rubbish people.
    I'm not apportioning blame to any of the others. It will not bring her back to life and will only lead to disappearing down the rabbit hole of conjecture.
    It is however an interesting question & I will run it past a few people to find their response.
    Alphie

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  22. Who is guilty? The woman herself. Knowing a madman killer is on the loose, she should have stayed home, called up the lover and asked him to come to her house instead. Or spent a quiet night rearranging her kitchen drawers or something. Read a good book...so many other options.

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  23. Of course the madman is also guilty. Killing is wrong.

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  24. The woman herself is responsible for her actions and subsequently her death.

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  25. ooooh! perhaps the madman killer is her husband who is always out "working" late (evil grin here)

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  26. I've read all the other comments now and they all make good points. I have decided I need to read the book.

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  27. Its fascinating reading everyone's comments. This must have been a fun team building exercise.

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  28. All the responses thus far do seem to have a Western slant, in that everyone is apportioning blame, as they see it in the context of Christian marriage. We are not told this is the case.Perhaps the characters are from a society with different views.


    Alphie Soup comes , perhaps, closest to my thinking.Most certainly, I do not spoon out portions of blame. It is a nasty little tale, but so common in so many communities.
    Responsibility for our own decisions is, or should be, paramount.
    1.The killer, mad or not, ended her life. But her being there was of her own action.
    We can (and should) consider this a moral tale and reflect on it, but I see no more punishment to be levied in a sports score of medal places

    I'm glad I will not have to serve on a jury! Thanks, EC.

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  29. 1. Killer - obviously for killing people. Always a no-go.
    2. Wife - She's responsible for her own actions, and careless in not thinking / bringing money.
    3. Husband for not caring for wife.
    4. Lover for being an ass, not bringing her home.
    And a tie:
    6. Ferryman for letting money go before mercy.
    6. Friend for not helping a friend in need.

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    1. 1. Or maybe the killer is the sole responsible part from this story. It is no-one's business going around killing no matter who or where they are and how they look.
      2. The police for not arresting the killer and / or patrolling the neighbourhood.

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  30. We are all responsible for the choices we make in life every single minute of the day and how we handle those choices however there are always consequences that arise from those decisions. (people always try to put the blame onto someone else for their bad choices). Although the woman seemed to be in an unhappy marriage and felt neglected, having a lover behind her husband’s back was not the way to sort that situation out. it takes two to make a marriage work so BOTH of them, knowing things were not right should have asked for help and counselling.

    She was throwing all sense out the window if she knew there was a madman out there and still went out, not even taking enough money to get her home.

    The madman obviously should not have killed her but interesting those people often will not be guilty afterwards.

    The lover could not have loved her deeply to not assort her home (even before she asked). He was only out for what he could get from her.
    Neither the friend or ferryman showed any concern or empathy for her situation.

    I would image after they heard of her death ALL would be feeling guilty.

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  31. Bottom line, the woman sets her own path, right or wrong, we all have choices, it’s what we do with them that determines our ending, woman or man,

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  32. Here’s who I would blame
    1. Madman for ... well being a madman
    2. Hubby for not bat good hubby
    3. wife for messing around
    4. Lover for being a wuss
    5. Friend
    6. Ferryman

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  33. Was the madman criminally responsible? If not, the he is low on my list. The husband and wife are tied for #1 because of choices made in their own lives. The lover 2, the friend #3, ferryman #4

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  34. The person who killed her is the one who is responsible. No one else. While it can be said that she should've been more cautious and not gone out knowing there was a killer lose, or people should've escorted her home, we can't place the blame of a crime on anyone else except the person who committed the crime, in my humble opinion. It may have been avoided, but it's not their fault.

    Elsie

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  35. Great question. At first, I didn't want to answer, but it does make you think.
    1. the murderer, of course
    2. the lover
    3. the ferryman
    4. the neighbor

    While I agree with Elsie, above, I think we are also part of a community and that when we can help people, we should.

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  36. Love is to blame I suppose, if there is blame due. Or lust. Or sheer loneliness. The desire to be alive? We all die in the end.

    The madman would kill whomever was out and about. Maybe both women if her friend walked her home. The ferry man can't run a free ride service. She's dead from fate alone. If we all hover inside afraid to leave our places, for fear of death, we die. Even a timid mouse, with every predator there is out to get him, leaves his hole to search for what he needs. He may not get home that night but he leaves, nonetheless.

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  37. You are the thoughtful sort we need more of! Placing blame is specifically something that is not my Kuleana (Hawaiian for responsibility.) Mine is to encourage and understand ALL - not judge anyone. Of course, in the privacy of my home I shoot off my mouth, but this is my public policy. <3

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  38. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND EFFORT IN RESPONDING TO THE HYPOTHETIC CONUNDRUM I WAS SO INTRIGUED WITH.My own response, and the perspective given in the book which triggered this post are in my next post.

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  39. She is responsible and she alone.....she should have behaved herself and stayed home.

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  40. madman, woman, lover, friend, ferryman, husband

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  41. The perpetrator of the crime is the guilty one.

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  42. The last person to see her alive the ferryman. but who is telling the story, who is the person who knows about her movements, I suggest it was the husband who unbeknown to his wife had secretly followed her movements on that fateful evening. the husband had previously plotted the whole scenario, pretending he was away on business in order to prevent detection. Yes the husband did the dirty deed.

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  43. Wow, this is really interesting! I have to look for this book! Personally, I don't think it's anyone's fault. We all have choices to be made! We all have to take responsibility for our lives.
    Big Hugs My Friend!

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  44. Fascinating! Well I don’t think there’s any point in deciding whose fault it is. I think she could have gone to her lover when it was safer. Since she chose to risk it it’s entirely her call. Why depend on anyone?

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